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James & John Q&A

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I debt is owed to James here for raising these relevant questions, particularly relevant to Tulsa's largely Charismatic Christian community.

James' words in bold italics.

John Riffe's responses follow beneath.

 

I hope this brief introductory treatment can satisfy more questions than it raises - to the stimulation of mutual edifcation and the benefit of silent onlookers (who are always welcome to jump in, whether agreeing or not):

John,
Hey James.  I'll try to interact with your comments a little bit before bed here. Hopefully, this can stimulate mutual edification. Your words will be in bold italics followed by my responses.
 
Yes, I would like to know how you view the gifts of the Spirit meshing with preterism, especially given your background in the faith.
I'm persuaded that the same Holy Spirit that gives prophecy, tongues, and [special] knowledge also causes them to cease when "that which is perfect" is attained. "Perfect" here is elsewhere rendered "mature" or "maturity." I lean towards understanding this attainment of "that which is perfect, (spiritual maturity)" on an individual level - just as passing from childhood to manhood is attained on an individual level. Upon attaining spiritual maturity/adulthood, I do not anticipate any spiritual gifts to cease in an individual's life except for prophecy, tongues, and [special] knowledge -since those are the only ones actually listed as ceasing (1 Cor 13:8-13). Even then, its done voluntarily, just as a young adult comes to the place of putting away childish things of his own volition. The childish things were good, from a good parent, but their purpose has been fulfilled in his life and he begins to engage his adult abilities with adult responsibilities.   Its conceivable that the attainment of spiritual maturity is marked by the personal realization that Jesus & the Father are very much present with us, having already Returned: he has been welcomed into a "face-to-face, fully knowing, fully known" relationship with his Heavenly Father and Christ the Son; faithful to receive Jesus' promise (Mat 5:8, John 14:21-23) enjoyed only by Christians who refrain from evil (3 John 1:11).  This culmination of growth in Christian understanding may be glimpsed through what might be called "the preterist perspective."
 
One of the things that I’m interested in [besides preterism] is orthodoxy.
Me, too, that is, if by "orthodoxy" we mean "belief and practice that matches what Christ & His Apostles teach via the Holy Bible - the Holy Spirit Himself making this living connection possible." In fact, the only reason I'm interested in preterism is because of my interest in this kind of orthodoxy, (Gk "correct teaching"). But if what we mean by "orthodoxy" is something different such as, "what famous Christians taught" or "what most Christians in ________________ (my group) teach," then I lose interest. I don't mind being a John the Baptist type from time to time, taking on the whole religious establishment if I have to, in order to stay in line with Christ & His Apostles -the true Elders of The Church. If I have chapter&verse where others don't, I'm digging in my heels and sticking to my guns -in love, of course.  And I believe Martin Luther and many others have said similar things. I do like to continually compare notes with everybody else, though: I can always learn more, refine my understanding, and correct out unknown errors thereby.
 
One of the by-products of the Reformation was denominationalism and with it the church has become very scatterbrained (lack of a better word). Instead of becoming one the church continues this dysfunctional cycle of mutation.
Much can be said about this. I think there has always been independent Bible study going on, followed by independent conclusions drawn from the same Holy Writ. The monolith of Catholism ("Universal / One-Churchism") tried to physically enforce unity by way of persecutions & inquisitions but finally had to yield to the reality of free men freely studying the Scriptures with free consciences towards God. Ultimately, all people find themselves in this everlasting New Testament era being each taught by God Himself -those that actually learn from Him come to Christ, (John 6:44-45).
I guess you can gather that I do not see this independent study so much as a bad thing, but rather, that Christians are learning to study and engage in thought each man for himself rather than to tow the line and copy the answers one-church authoritarians attempt to spoon feed. If this independent study leads to some independent conclusions that prompt independent denominational organizations, I'm okay with that so long as we all grow in love enough to always maintain a sense of Christian cameraderie that supercedes (relatively) minor doctrinal differences. There is only one God, one Lord Jesus Christ, one Holy Spirit, one Baptism, one Body of Christ, one Word of God, one Faith (Eph 4:4-6) -we are just finding ourselves at different levels of understanding of that one Faith and so we have differences of opinion that drive different practices and organization. So long as we are each prepared to change whatever belief & practice whenever God guides us to learn something more from His Word, I'm okay with allowing each to find his own place in the vast & wonderfully varied Bride of Christ, the New & Heavenly Jerusalem, (John 3:29, Eph 5:22-32 identify The Church as Christ's Bride/Wife and Rev 21:2, Rev 21:9, Rev 22:17 identify Christ's Bride/Wife as the New Jerusalem = the Heavenly Jerusalem, Church of the Firstborn of Heb 12:22-24, the City set on a Hill of Mat 5:14 = all they who heed Jesus).
 
I believe that Christians are getting sick and tired of being a part of a sect and I believe there will be a revival in orthodoxy. What I mean is a return to the liturgy in worship, an interest in church history, a desire to be one church rather than 10,000 arguing sects and so forth.

I agree. But I see it happening on an individual level - as each one attains spiritual maturity in Christ. As one grows up spiritually, he grows in understanding and love, he begins to find his playpen, (denomination), which once was for his safety, to be too constraining, inhibiting his further stimulation & development. When he grows strong & wise enough to navigate the dangers of the outside world, he begins to successfully climb over the railing of his own volition -with parental approval. He discovers other children to play with who have done the same thing -while respecting the need of those still in their playpens & cribs.  I began my walk with God as a 7th Day Adventist and broadened out over the course of time to include Lutherans, then Charismatics/Pentecostals, then Presbyterians, Southern Baptists, Methodists, then Roman Catholics & Greek Othodox, and finally - whosoever expresses 1) Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and demonstrates 2) Love for all the Saints (fellow Christians) (more at http://thekingdomcome.com/node/255/1204#comment-1204).

So, again, I see it as a realm entered individually, as one grows in grace.

When I put the best light upon the better arguments between denominations, I regard it as the wholesome practice of comparing notes after each does his own homework (rather than the disgusting practice of many: thoughtlessly copying the occasionally wrong answers of famous others).  This is evidence that people are studying God's Word independently -loving God with all their minds per Mat 12:30.

 

The worst of such denominational bickering -bitter envying & selfish ambitions (James 3:13-18)- really has nothing to do with actual doctrine, but rather, a mob mentality has taken over not unlike the sophomoric fans wildly rooting for whatever team representing their school -it has nothing to do with their college studies.  Preterism can neither help nor hinder this problem -it is a work of the flesh, Christians choosing hateful hypocrisy over loving obedience, the praise of men over the praise of God, their traditions over The Truth.  God forbid that we ever find ourselves in a situation where such rabid traditionalists, answer-copying, men-pleasing hypocrites find themselves in control of a monolithic, physically enforced One-Church. It may be the wisdom of God that keeps such carnal people divided and weak -akin to what He did at the Tower of Babel- that those who love Bible study might slip through their ranks, moving freely, and following The Lamb wherever He goes. Consider the bulk of accounts about the Pharisees, Sadducees, Scribes, Teachers of the Law, Herodians, Judaizers et al as divine warnings of what NOT to do -hypocrisy (disobedience) is what sours God's servants into such and it can happen to any of us when we get carnal.

 
And so when I come to preterism I ask myself how can this help define orthodoxy in the area of eschatology?
This is where it gets a bit paradoxical. Because of preterism, I am in greater understanding with non-tongue talkers, realizing how that the maturity that brings tongues ceasing is now available to each of us. But, because of preterism, I am more aware than ever before of the Lord's ready presence to guide my life via the Holy Spirit, demonstrate His power via the non-ceasing, other Gifts of His Spirit, and enforce the reality of His exceedingly great & precious promises -bringing me into greater affinity with Charismatic, Word of Faith people more than ever before. And when I look at the New Jerusalem as a God-given visionary-poetic description of the Bride of Christ, The Church Universal, The Body of Christian believers everywhere, I realize that, because of the blood of Christ, God looks upon The Church with rose-colored glasses. (Heb 12:22-24 and Rev 21 and Rev 22) And I ask myself, "Then, why can't I look upon the vast community of Christians with rose-colored glasses of love, too?" Love covers the multitude of sins (1 Peter 4:8). 
 
Futurism never provided any unity so can preterism?
The error of Futurism, like all errors, distracts people away from accurate knowledge about God & Jesus and thereby yeilds to strife & division -all of which tragically unnecessary. But grace & peace are multiplied to people as knowledge of God is gathered (2 Peter 1:2).  I think preterism's enhancement of our knowledge of God & Jesus is best presented as just one organizing principle among many within a full-orbed Gospel -Good News- presentation. Its the Good News that puts you in a good mood. Unity comes from the Head of the Church, Jesus Christ, our Teacher -we are all brothers, (Matt 23:8-11) made great through serving one another rather than bossing. When we learn to rally around Jesus, we learn true unity -motivated by love, love of the Truth. Its my love of Truth over tradition that brought me to include preterism in my understanding of the Gospel. Preterism, stripped naked of the rest of the Gospel, can be made unnecessarily offensive - like any other aspect of the Gospel. Recalling that Jesus is The Word of God made flesh, we take ALL of Jesus, not just the parts we like, not just His little finger.  Preterism is focused upon by TPA simply because it is such a tough nut to crack for so many Tulsans and requires a bit extra attention  -attention we can apply to the study of "End-Times"-  without feeling compelled to change churches.
 
 I also ask how does preterism reel in the Charismatics?
This is important part of my heart on the matter, something that too many in the Reform Preterist camp tend to disregard, even sneer upon unfortunately, because of their lack of appreciation for the sincerity with which many Charismatic Christians boldly seek to live out what they see in God's Word -disregarding the uninformed reactions of men. I believe we reel in Charismatics by emphasising the accomplished Victory of Christ that validates His promises and power all the more. We emphasize that the Kingdom came "with power" not "without power." We emphasize that God never said He would take the Holy Spirit away upon Jesus' Return, but rather, Jesus brings God the Father with Him at His Return, that EMMANUAL truly means "GOD WITH US" (Mat 1:23) and that the time is now that, "Behold, the dwelling of God is with men!" (Rev 21:3).  So if the book of Acts records them "tasting of powers of the coming age" (Heb 6:4-6), HOW MUCH MORE do we rejoice in those powers today, powers that rightly pertain to the age in which we now live, the everlasting New Heavens & New Earth & New Jerusalem age of the Everlasting New Covenant in Christ's Blood!  This one thing in which both Charismatics & Preterists especially rejoice is the key toward them supercharging each other in The Faith:  The absolute Victory of Christ:  Christ's Victory translating our individual faith into our victories as individuals, Christ's Victory translating our community's faith into our victories as communities, nations, humanity at large.

 

Let’s face it, telling a Charismatic that his prayer language ceased long time ago is not going to appeal to him.

True. And I'm not persuaded it would be truthful, either. I'm inclined to take the approach that the same Holy Spirit Who gives someone the utterance in tongues is the same Holy Spirit Who prompts him to put it away as a thing pertaining to spiritual childhood when spiritual maturity is personally, individually attained. But a man can cling to childish things as long he feels a need for them.
 
I have a lot of thoughts about this and would be interested in your commentary.
I hope I have given reasonable introduction to my thoughts on these matters in such a way as to satisfy the question without being so cumbersome as to be overbearing, so brief as to invite misunderstanding.  I will try to add Scripture support in here later as well as some repackaging of discussions I have had on the subject at http://thekingdomcome.com/cessationism.
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In the Name of Jesus, may God bless the Reader with Christ's understanding via the Holy Ghost. Amen.
This is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. ~1 John 5:4b
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.  ~Romans 10:17
Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have. ~Luke 8:18
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. ~Rev 3:22